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Message Board > Java > Really is misunderstood!

April 23, 2009, 01:44
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

I know people who can actually work quite fluently with VI editor. I was surprised.
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Kwakkel
#
April 23, 2009, 12:41
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

Why? Learning a decent text editor will make you many times more productive than any IDE I've used.
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laffo
#
April 23, 2009, 18:45
PEader
お前はもう死んでいる
1486 posts

I use vim. I think VI is all a I'm better then you type of tool. Anyway I always say the right tool for a job.

IDE's are much better for large projects. If you only ever work on one file then a text editor is good for fast editing that's mon avis.
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I see 57,005 people.
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April 23, 2009, 19:23
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

I disagree completely, if you know the general layout of the project then I find myself a million times more productive in emacs than I was in Eclipse.

The speed of being able to open files, alter screen layout and switch buffers with a couple of keystrokes utterly destroys the switch from keyboard to mouse, move mouse, click things, move back to keyboard method of most IDEs. For pretty much all of them keyboard shortcuts are an afterthought - the point isn't to have shortcuts for a few commands it's to be able to control your editor completely from the keyboard.

And if you really can't let some IDE features go then there's literally an extension for everything.

There's also the virtues of being able to configure your editor properly. In most IDEs you're limited to a few dialogue boxes and changing what the editor designers thought you might want to change. Want more? Then you've got to write some crazy plugin and have fun with that a year later.

Emacs takes configuration to the extremes and makes it so easy. Here's my main emacs config file I started with defaults and added and changed things as I saw fit. Each change took a few minutes at most. Doing things like that with an IDE is ridiculous.

Not to mention since it's all easy to carry around and edit config files I can happily stick it in a repo and whenever I set up a new PC I can just pull from my repo and ta-da. I'll also mention that because I use a repository for my configuration my home PC, my work PC and my laptop can all share the same setup and be in-sync with one git command.

When I think of the sheer PAIN it took setting up Eclipse afresh I shudder. It was actually Subclipse (SVN plugin for Eclipse) that was the last straw - I was up for an hour trying to get it to play nice. I can't say I've had even one such moment with emacs.

I miss nothing from Eclipse. My recent biggest moment of "this is the best thing I ever did" was when I completely fucked up configuration of X in my machine, had to mess with stuff in the terminal and remembered that oh-yeah, emacs runs perfectly from the command line. There was no difference at all, editing the required configs was a lot easier than if I was flicking to nano all the time.

I don't have much experience of vi/vim, but I do know that emacs is far more than just good for editing the odd file and is way more than adequate for projects of any size.

[Edited on April 23, 2009 by Fiona]
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laffo
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April 24, 2009, 17:23
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

I think the program you use to develop greatly depends on what you are doing and the knowledge you have of something. i think arguing is as pointless as discussing whether white wine or red wine is better.
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Kwakkel
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April 24, 2009, 17:26
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

White wine is better.
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laffo
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April 25, 2009, 02:38
PEader
お前はもう死んでいる
1486 posts

Quoting Fiona:
I disagree completely, if you know the general layout of the project then I find myself a million times more productive in emacs than I was in Eclipse.

The speed of being able to open files, alter screen layout and switch buffers with a couple of keystrokes utterly destroys the switch from keyboard to mouse, move mouse, click things, move back to keyboard method of most IDEs. For pretty much all of them keyboard shortcuts are an afterthought - the point isn't to have shortcuts for a few commands it's to be able to control your editor completely from the keyboard.

And if you really can't let some IDE features go then there's literally an extension for everything.

There's also the virtues of being able to configure your editor properly. In most IDEs you're limited to a few dialogue boxes and changing what the editor designers thought you might want to change. Want more? Then you've got to write some crazy plugin and have fun with that a year later.

Emacs takes configuration to the extremes and makes it so easy. Here's my main emacs config file I started with defaults and added and changed things as I saw fit. Each change took a few minutes at most. Doing things like that with an IDE is ridiculous.

Not to mention since it's all easy to carry around and edit config files I can happily stick it in a repo and whenever I set up a new PC I can just pull from my repo and ta-da. I'll also mention that because I use a repository for my configuration my home PC, my work PC and my laptop can all share the same setup and be in-sync with one git command.

When I think of the sheer PAIN it took setting up Eclipse afresh I shudder. It was actually Subclipse (SVN plugin for Eclipse) that was the last straw - I was up for an hour trying to get it to play nice. I can't say I've had even one such moment with emacs.

I miss nothing from Eclipse. My recent biggest moment of "this is the best thing I ever did" was when I completely fucked up configuration of X in my machine, had to mess with stuff in the terminal and remembered that oh-yeah, emacs runs perfectly from the command line. There was no difference at all, editing the required configs was a lot easier than if I was flicking to nano all the time.

I don't have much experience of vi/vim, but I do know that emacs is far more than just good for editing the odd file and is way more than adequate for projects of any size.

I think you're over simplifying here. Most text editors are not remotely close to emacs. People always mention speed I can open a file fast in an IDE and if I'm working on a portfolio of over 30 projects which I am not using on a daily basis I wont know the ins and outs of the folder and where files are so project management is needed. If text editors were so great we wouldn't have IDE's but like i said each to his own and use the write tool to get the job done. I didn't think subclipse was out of beta...
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I see 57,005 people.
#
April 25, 2009, 11:36
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

Quoting PEader:
I think you're over simplifying here. Most text editors are not remotely close to emacs.
But it is a text editor..? Or rather it is a source code editor.

Quote:
People always mention speed I can open a file fast in an IDE
The IDE takes a long time to open. That's the point.

Quote:
and if I'm working on a portfolio of over 30 projects which I am not using on a daily basis I wont know the ins and outs of the folder and where files are so project management is needed.
Like I already linked to, if text editing is not good enough you can get project management plugins if you really need them. Personally I certainly haven't needed to and I maintain a lot of legacy code at work.

I recently had to do a fairly large Drupal website. Drupal is such bullshit that I ended up having to dive into the core and work out it's shitty huge codebase. I can say that simply the act of being able to switch between files quickly made it a lot easier than it would have been had I been using Eclipse.

"IDE" sounds great with it's code-completion and intellisense and outline views and other shit. But compared to a decent text editor they just get in your way.

I get the feeling the term "text editor" puts people off because they're like "Oh but I need my code editor to do more than edit text." What they don't realise is that code is JUST text. Using IDEs I feel like the text editing plays second fiddle to code generation or project views etc. When really I'm spending most of my time editing text so that should be the priority.

Quote:
If text editors were so great we wouldn't have IDE's
We have IDEs because it lowers the barrier of entry somewhat. The same people who are scared of the command line are the same people who are scared to do C-xC-f to open a file.

It's also easier to convince people to use an IDE that will amazingly write their code for them using pretty dialogs and flashy bars than to use a primitive text editor.

Quote:
but like i said each to his own and use the write tool to get the job done.
You have to have used all the tools for long enough to make a decision on which is the right one.

Anyway that sounds great in practice, but my mind and fingers are now mapped to emacs keybindings. I subconciously try to use them in every other bit of software. (Thank god for Firemacs.) I think there would be too many features I would miss in other editors.
No scratch that, there would be. dabbrev-expand immediately comes to mind. (It's like auto complete but on acid and infinitely easier to use. Not to mention it works on all buffers, I use ERC as my IRC client and i'd be lost without dabbrev-expand among other features.)

Quote:
I didn't think subclipse was out of beta...

It's up to version 1.4.3.
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laffo
#
April 26, 2009, 18:05
PEader
お前はもう死んでいる
1486 posts

I'm going to go get my desert eagle I work in the programming industry as a leading compiler and I know that x is best and you are hitler. I'm block you now. pwn.

[Edited on April 29, 2009 by PEader]
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I see 57,005 people.
#
April 26, 2009, 21:21
Mezzmer
Square-theorist
792 posts

Quoting PEader:
It's not about what is best it's about what works for you as a programmer. IDE's make my life easier especially if they have a good source-code editor but having everything separate also works too. So what I'm saying is everything is great and we are awesome. AWESOME!


That was the longest (intelligent) post ever on booleansoup. A tear comes from my eye, and i salute you all.

;(
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#
April 27, 2009, 14:28
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

Quoting PEader:
Red wine is better.


xD
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Kwakkel
#
April 29, 2009, 00:19
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

Urm. I don't know what the fuck I just did but I managed to delete your brilliant post. Google doesn't have a new enough cache of the page either.

Fuck. I had written a reply that was in the form of "You're probably right, let's hug and make up" etc hippy shit and in the process managed to make myself look like a dick that removes posts she doesn't agree with.

That edit button is EVIL - I think I must have clicked it instead of quote by accident and because the page looks the damn same...

So sorry.

[Edited on April 29, 2009 by Fiona]
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laffo
#
April 29, 2009, 01:13
PEader
お前はもう死んでいる
1486 posts

Quoting Fiona:
Urm. I don't know what the fuck I just did but I managed to delete your brilliant post. Google doesn't have a new enough cache of the page either.

Fuck. I had written a reply that was in the form of "You're probably right, let's hug and make up" etc hippy shit and in the process managed to make myself look like a dick that removes posts she doesn't agree with.

That edit button is EVIL - I think I must have clicked it instead of quote by accident and because the page looks the damn same...

So sorry.

I recreated it. <3
____________
I see 57,005 people.
#
April 29, 2009, 10:24
Fiona
games are terrible
-9616558 posts

It's better now.
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laffo
#
April 29, 2009, 12:17
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

are-you-sure-messages ftw. <3
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Kwakkel
#
October 13, 2010, 09:46
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

Quoting PEader:
auto-completion is awesome you just need to tweak it. It saves on so much typing. I mean you.suck.ass!


it's maybe nice because Java uses names like javax.xml.transform.TransformerFactoryConfigurationError

[Edited on October 13, 2010 by Dennis]
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Kwakkel
#
March 1, 2011, 22:46
Zosma
Senior Procrastinator
99 posts

I agree with all of you.
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Fuck a duck
#
May 11, 2011, 16:12
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

Me too.
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Kwakkel
#
May 12, 2011, 00:47
FredBlaster
Gagalicious
22 posts

I DISAGREE.








Rose wine is better.
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May 13, 2011, 11:26
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

Rose wine is for gays
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Kwakkel
#
May 15, 2011, 23:47
antzrhere
None
12 posts
The irony is, you try drinking alot red wine and using an IDE...it becomes disasterous when you *think* you can type quicker than the auto-complete. Couple that with some vomit and sticky-keys become a real minefield...

On the other hand, Notepad doesn't care if you're drinking Meths...
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June 14, 2011, 17:09
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts



THIS is irony!
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Kwakkel
#
June 14, 2011, 22:17
PB
Defender of the faith
630 posts

This irony is yellow and plastic. The realy iron just is...
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June 17, 2011, 10:23
Dennis
どこかにいる
2089 posts

an iron not made of iron is irony but no ironing :cry:
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Kwakkel
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Message Board > Java > Really is misunderstood!

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